I appreciate your “I stand by my interpretation” statement. I’ll return the favor of damning with faint praise: i’m sure you’re a nice, well-meaning person who intends well for others and believes that faith is important – I just don’t see it in your blog and felt you just did a once-over-lightly view of the issue I raised in my blog.
Heaven help us, we need more grace from one another, a few more questions before making assumptions about intent. greatness has to do with faith in partnering with God, but if that partnership is tarnished by ego and self, then forget it. the blog i wrote makes it clear that it’s not an ego thing (i.e. “The problem is that at first blush, God’s dream often looks like death and, like Jonah, we resist it.” and “may simply be our ego run amok.”)
Where I take exception with you is the inference your readers make that I’m saying greatness has to do with exalting the self when I say it has to do with dreaming God’s dream while not exalting the self. And if you disagree with this, then that’s fair.
Yes, we need to be disabused of our narcissism. But the problem as i see it with your blog is that it begins with the laudable ideas of simplicity and service and gives people a way of excusing their lack of faith (read: risk). If your blog does that for some who God wanted to trust him more in reaching out in risky ways to the poor, in my view, it would be an unfortunate thing.
blog comments between strangers are a poor way of dialogue and I apologize – I don’t intend to be polemical, but I just wanted to be clear. I’ll shut up now.
Dear Seth,
I don’t know you personally, but i feel like i’ve gotten to know you a lot better from reading many of your blogs. I found your blogs from checking out the WR, and my buddy being on Team Judah right now. My Professor Terry Linhart at Bethel College said he was also good friends of yours.
This blog meant a lot to me, as i struggle with this often. I feel deep inside of me an urge or calling to be great, or do something great. I feel as if there is something special deep inside of me to do something truly great for God – like those we read of in the OT, or even people like Rich Mullins, or even You. For so long i’ve struggled with whether this was a true feeling, like a prophecy, or if it was simply my spirit longing to do something successful; something worth being noted for God. In one instance i can imagine myself being a leader of some ministry – training men in the Body of Christ to become who they were called to be, and to fully understand their giftings… this would be great. I hear great names of Christian Authors, who have not only motivated us through their words, but also through their life experiences of being there, fighting the fight for Christ – again, truly great. But then, i think – maybe God’s view of great is different from my view. Becoming a famous author, or leader, who’s name is so familiar like Rob Bell, Louie Giglio, Billy Graham may not be what God wants from me. I believe, like you said, being great for God isn’t always the famous or the publically acclaimed.. in fact being great for God tends to be the opposite, more like Jonah. Being great for God is usually laying your life down and taking the low road… living with the beaten down, and simply loving the people who have to walk miles for a drink of water.
I graduated from Bethel College with a Youth Ministry degree. My senior year of college, God showed me The Church, and i believe He told me not to go into the church to be paid for ministry. I feel as if He called me to a life where ministry isn’t merely a job, but my life. I’m more prone to living off of Ramen noodles (even though they are extremely unhealthy), than having the money to eat like a king whenever i want (not that i do have that kind of money). I’m more prone to tents/ sleeping bags/ hard surfaces, than comfy beds. I’m more prone to a life of service for God, than a life of comfort. I could see myself working for a ministry like AIM… and raising up leaders. If anything i enjoy simply listening to your wisdom. My favorite verse as a child and to this day is Prov. 13:20, “He who walks among the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.” I can’t help but find people with Godly wisodm.
I usually don’t write this much, but felt urged at 7 in the morning to post on your blog. Keep Pressing on Seth… you are an inspiration to others.
– Adam Sloan
Seth, I went back and read what Pam wrote in response to you. I pulled this quote:
“It is true that I did not thoroughly read your entire site or blog. This particular post caught my attention. I read it through twice to make sure I was understanding what I thought was a clearly stated takeaway message. And I just read it for a third time to see how I misrepresented you, and frankly, Seth, it’s still the message that I, as a reader, took away from the post.” (emphasis mine)
I must say, I knew having read you for a while you would agree with Pam’s post. I think the point I emphasis above is the issue that I am grieved over. “I” the reader am the final authority. This is a very dangerous interpretive grid to approach any literature, and most certainly can lead one to greater error in interpreting the sacrared text. While Pam’s post makes a good point, a point that can stand on its’ own, it uses your post while missing your greater point. Greatness defined by American philosophy and greatness defined by kingdom usefulness are two different subjects. I think you certainly argue for the latter.
Chris
Sorry, it did not bring the italics over. The point I was emphasizing is:
“…, it’s still the message that I, as a reader, took away from the post.”
What does believing that God wants to do amazing thing thru my life have to do with ego? It takes humility to see that sort of thing accomplished. I think that the problem is that many evangelicals have been burned by the health-and-wealth preachers, so anything that sounds like “God has a great plan for your life” sounds like egotism to them. And I think that’s fair, but we also need to believe who God is and who he says we are. The paradox, I think, comes in that we see greatness thru incredible self-sacrifice, thru bearing our own cross, thru joining Christ in the fellowship of his sufferings… but greatness still comes.
This quote can easily feed the human ego. Who doesn’t want greatness? Isn’t that the stuff that our dreams are made of? I think yes, God wants to do “more than we can imagine, ask or think.” But isn’t His goal usually His glory not ours? He often bestows honour but that is a gift not a goal. Hard to keep a balance between humility and believing you are special to the King of Kings. What exactly is the right kind of pride to have? One thing I have always feared is presumption. Being sure and certain of what God wants to do is the key thing. Knowing it is His idea not yours.
But isn’t that the point? It is God wanting to act, and He may happen to choose you to do it with but He could just as easily choose someone else. Paul said “don’t think of yourself more highly than you ought” but to “have a sober estimate” of yourself. I guess humility comes from remembering He doesn’t have to touch you with a barge pole, and expectation comes from knowing amazingly He wants to and He has stuff to do He wants you to partner in.
“Attempt great things for God” – that has to be only in line with your imagination reaching for the stars under His guidance and will. He is a huge imaginer. Look at creation! But as the One with the blueprint, our great ideas are never as great as His. If He’s your inspiration, He’s your source, He’s the One giving you the commands, there will be no limit to what can be done.
One of the most incredible signs of His greatnes is that He works so tirelessly, painstakingly and patiently at working in the character of Jesus into lumps of clay with often more hardness than malleability. We love our independence but He wants our dependence. Jesus chose that road. He only did what He saw the Father doing, and He was the greatest man who ever lived.
I think it depends on your definition of greatness…and so I agree with Jeff…
“it takes humility to see that sort of thing accomplished.”
What we do here has eternal consequences…and the Bible does say that God will vindicate us and in do time lift us up…but I know I have been asked to do quite a few things lately that I know God has asked me to do…and people haven’t liked it…so I don’t feel so great…yet I know that it is in God’s hands. It takes humility to do things that people wont like. Especially when you are accustomed to being a people pleaser.
So what exactly IS greatness? And in whose eyes are you great?
We do things as aliens here…so we might not look so great, here, in the eyes of people…but are we willing to do them and look like idiots any way…knowing that when we are obedient we are great in His eyes…and that what we have done has eternal consequences…because He works things out through us…things we may never know about.
Oswald Chambers says in one of his posts that it is by God’s mercy that we have no idea what He is doing through us.
I think the point is to get to a place where we hear his voice…do what He says no matter what the cost…and not worry about whether we are great or not…because He vindicates and lifts us up…whenever His timing is right…and that could be in this world or the next…
Can we stand by Him, and believe in what He is doing, and believe in who we are because of Him despite how it looks in the physical?
Jesus didn’t look so great and it took a lot of courage to believe in what He was doing and what He was about…but in hindsight we know He is the greatest…but yet many try and argue His greatness away…still today. But I have heard God say countless times to me…”I have nothing to prove”
We are great…and we can do great things through Him…but not everyone will see us that way or acknowledge that what we do is even great…but that doesn’t matter does it?
I must Say Blss you both Seth and Pam.Y u say? Cause eventhough there was a little misinterpretation of the article, you both (with Godly supervision of course) allowed lot of Christians to get even close to the Lord trhu repenting for the complex of the Ego or I can do it for God!
With Grace and Love We readers thank you so much for the opportunity to receive His GRace .
(thanks Francesco for your kind words!)
Hi Seth, this is why I blog…to connect to others and learn from others. I am quite sure that you and I are much closer to agreement than our recent postings have suggested.
A life of faith is a fascinating, tension-filled process. Doing for God is always, always wonderful. I’m also trying to clumsily convey Being for God. Just being, being, being. I probably am erring on the side of being, having jumped off the other end of the teeter-totter when I realized my identity as a Christ follower had become tangled up with all the doing and outcomes. What if there is no doing? What if there is not visible outcome? These are the questions that I began to explore as I felt inspired by the Holy Spirit to unplug from every ministry I was in. God knows I was wired, a tireless workhorse for the church and for his kingdom.
This has led me to reading all kinds of literature about the stillness of faith, the tapping into God’s presence and discovering the profound in everyday, ordinary living. This is where weakness is embraced, where obscurity is found to be a virtue and doing nothing special just might have a spiritual value to it after all.
Were we born for greatness? For the greatness of God’s pleasure and love, of course. And that is often found in the not-so-great caves and valleys of daily life.
Thank you, Seth, for blogging about this. I’ll put a link at the end of my post so people can continue to read this discussion if they are inclined. I appreciate, really, that you took it to heart and invited your readers to dialog about it. If you are ever any where near Portland, Oregon give me a holler. I’ll take you out for a coffee.
Random blogger here! Andrew if you read this I’m sorry I spelled your name wrong…It is Shearman everyone not Sherman. Seth, how about changing the quote to this: Expect great things from God, attempt great things ‘with/through’ God.
That said, a lot of the people that read Pam’s site have come out of very hurtful ‘church’ experiences. They have had the “Great things of God” handed to them on a platter of Man’s Ego and have been chewed up and spit out by the whole system. Many have had their faith shaken. Most struggle with feeling like they have somehow failed in their attempt at “great things.” I know I was on the treadmill thinking I was doing great things when all I was doing was trying to impress others with my giftings and importance.
Mostly, as others have pointed out, you are both preaching the same sermon. The cool thing is I have heard of you through Andrew for many, many years and because I trust his heart so much I knew I could probably trust yours. That is what true fathers in the faith do – produce sons/daughters that carry the same smell of Jesus that they carry.
Blessings to you.
Seth, sometimes I think this blog is as important a ministry as AIM itself. To echo Francesco, I think it’s awesome that us Christ-followers can have this dialogue and it can bless and enlarge our minds as sometimes we agree *or* agree-to-disagree. In the end, God wins every time.
re: the tension between humility and William Carey’s quote. The key, I believe, is in keeping the emphasis on GOD. I used to really really struggle with this. If “I” did something, then why shouldn’t I be pleased with me? It’s not like I was God’s puppet. Well, when you think about the fact that all you are, your gifts and talents, everything, is a gift from God; then yes, God in fact DOES deserve all the glory. I think the knowledge of this fact can keep us from giving ourselves the credit that would destroy our humility.
When you originally wrote that blog, Seth, it was beyond encouraging to me. I bookmarked it and printed it.
I believe we are made for greatness, and that it is a greatness far beyond our concept of greatness. To me, that blog was a battle cry to claim my inheritance while on earth. To not wait for the glory of heaven, but to reach out, desparately, to grab heaven and pull a bit of it down here.
And there is an inner hero in all of us. I’ve always felt it. I’ve always felt like there’s a part of me on the inside who really wants to wear a cape and fly. And when you wrote that blog it was magical to me because for once someone said, “Yes, you are not crazy. What you feel is normal and God wants to use it.” It was liberating. And not only was it okay to want to be made for greatness, but there was an appropriate and holy place to apply that desire. That God wanted me to place that desire alongside with his and be willing to do whatever that entailed.
Seth, Thank God for men who know how Great their God is and want Him represented in the earth. Keep drawing the greatness out of people. God’s word says there are not so many fathers….I pray that their are many fathers of faith just like you. Blessings!
Nelson Mandela quote
“Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won’t feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It’s not just in some of us; it’s in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.”
I don’t know you or Pam, but on reading the original post, I have to say that there is a caveat to the “you were made for greatness” thing. Yes, God did do great things through people, but they, at the time, were not TRYING to do great things. They just walked with God, spoke to people when God said to speak, not necessarily with unbending faith (as in your example, Jonah was kind of mad about it). The people were actually ordinary people doing ordinary things. God made those things great in retrospect.
This is where the message becomes abusive and people become narcissistic. It’s looking for the “great things” that God has planned for you to do and overlooking the ordinary things – which might very well be how God is going to accomplish the greatness. So the message is not necessarily that “God has called you to greatness” but that God has called you to follow him at all times – and sometimes he leads you to great places.